National and Minnesota Report

Our interview with Senator Abeler is here textually and via an audio file.

All right, this is Shawn Towle publisher of Checks & Balances (ChecksandBalances.com) speaking with state Senator Jim Abeler.

C&B: GreetingsSenator how are you doing?

Abeler: People keep asking and it’s very thoughtful that they do. I think I’m doing like so many people I’ve talked to you go from the crying on Saturday to about somebody, you know a good friend has passed and then you thinking that the other ones are gonna pass as well and then and then they thanks to God don’t and then we’re worried about the updates. We’re all happy they caught the guy. And then moving to the point about being concerned for the future of our great democracy, it’s it’s been quite a weekend and so many people kind of rallied together and I actually like that part

C&B: How do you first learn about the assassination attempt on your friend and colleague Senator John Hoffman, and his wife and the assassination of Speaker Emerita, and her husband, Melissa Hortman, of which you served with as a House member.

Abeler: That’s right, now, since 2004. I was the first person she met on the house floor. I happen to be there on the floor like after the election a couple days later she watered in with her kids and so I, who are you and Melissa here’s the retiring room, you’ll probably sit over there somewhere. And so we struck it off then as you all kind of in the same neighborhood representing the North Metro and we had a good relationship strong well never since and so that’s how I met her and then so shocked at 3 o’clock in the morning on Saturday morning. Knock at the door and there’s the police. I open the door in my pajamas. “Hey, how are you doing,” which I would do and naïve now but I would’ve gotten shot just the same as John and in the Hortmans just like unaware. And so they said well, you know don’t be opening the door, to strangers and if you hear something from us or anybody call 911 to make sure that you’re good to go by the time they mention that they have been two people transported from the Hoffman residence and I figured it must be John and then didn’t know which other one if those his wife or his daughter. SO, 3:30 comes along knock at the door and so we called 911 barely find my phone and dozed off again for a minute and there’s the other those guys are legit open the door and then they mention that a legislator from Brooklyn Park and had been shot and they didn’t know that this position of everything and I figured it must be Melissa and so In the police camp out in front of my house ever since all the way up till about 10 o’clock last night and so grateful for that quick response, I think Anoka PD was the first responder to protect any legislator so I gave them credit for that that they were so on top of their game.

C&B: Now, I doubt you would’ve been at target in this case because once they’ve released the hit list that the individual had it was all Democrats or progressive leaning entities, but you didn’t know that at the time. But, you stand in a unique position as a legislator throughout your career you’ve been seen as not an extreme member of your party, the Republican party you buck your party’s last governor template on transportation finance bill to override and which point I will point out there wasn’t a lack there was a lack of enough support in that bill for the Northstar, which now is defunct in served your district. And you’ve worked in concert with Senator Hoffman on the Health and Human Services bills whether you chair he’s a chair and in general you’re often the calm voice of reason on the floor in either body I’ve ever watched you operate in and how do you do this? How do you do this when very extreme elements on your side of the aisle exist and provide a constant refrain, which is not very inclusive at all.

Abeler: Well, unfortunately, the constant refrain is on both sides, which makes me grieve for the system. It’s become more and more polar where the middle of either party has kind of been driven away from the core political process. I decided I don’t know how I decided, but I just tried to habitually represent the people of my area and I live in a purple town anyway and so I was raised not knowing or caring of people’s political stuff was about just we wanted to fix the bridge or get a highway or something and solved police or whatever they were working on time that I barely paid attention to as just a working citizen. And people like that there I think people are hungry for somebody who is willing to actually look after the best idea. Whoever thought of it that is less and less common unfortunately now in our state politics and I suppose even locally it’s triples down.

C&B: Well, I know you did not define yourself as a MAGA member but in your estimation are there good people on both sides is Donald Trump said after the Nazi protest in South Carolina or are the evil elements in the MAGA movement present.

Abeler: That’s interesting question they are evil elements in both in all the movements. What we have lost is the normal restraint that people used to have which finds voice in either the left or the right nnd there are violent people everywhere in this world who think that’s a good way to solve something I don’t think MAGA is characterized by evil people who are extreme and I don’t think the DSA is on the progressive left can be characterized by people who are evil or extreme people that have deeply held beliefs, that they see not being recognize or being if they were harder, they’re gonna get some of their police recognized. We’re in a a very country. We have never been so closely divided the legislature became trifecta for the Democrat Democrats by 161 people changing their mind and Afton and so and now we have you know 101 Democrats and 100 Republicans. And when I first got there 27 years ago, there was commonly people of all stripes voting on bills they thought was correct, they thought it were correct. And that you would often have in the house 60 Republicans and seven Democrats. Or 60 Democrats and seven Republicans thing excuse me 68, so where there is a significant margin of people on the opposite side without the bill was good. They were gonna vote that is steadily shrunk away to the point that the trifecta, as a mentality has taken over. So, it’s winter take all no we our moment we’re gonna get all we can get for our place. I’ve noticed that when you work with size and get some policy matter. The rest in the collaborative way it seldom gets overturned. I’ve also noticed when things are decided by by a one vote their margin that people cannot wait to undo the elements that passed that way the other side gets into power and. It drives fundraising and drives political activity. We must take over so we can dictate our will, and it’s bad and it’s on both sides and. What people don’t recognize when I ran for the US and state wide I recognize talking to people what they want on a bipartisan base says I look in their eyes work together get things done. We are not doing that now and that is really a loss.

C&B: So then you would disagree with one of my fundamentals that I’ve always offered, which is compromise is capitulation, you disagree with that sentiment.

Abeler: Right you have to compromise. You don’t get everything you want if you think you get everything you want and you’re probably gonna get nothing. In most cases unless you have all the power if you just look at the two world so get the Minnesota attractive thing that accomplished many things that many people on the left to go like this is amazing. And many people on the right to agree daily, but then you have a trifecta factor in Washington and the same people that are so happy that they use their power to move all their issues in Minnesota are angry that the Right is moving as power to move issues that they find important they fail to recognize that many things that got past as a trifecta we’re abhorrent to the people on the right and so to me that’s not good government, on either side. The best work is done when people offer another insight and you get thoughtful legislation that will stand the test the time that is not happening in Minnesota with the it’s with the new with the house Is required to come to at least some discussion with the right and they were frankly out of practice and in Washington, where people wake up every morning, deciding how they can criticize the other side for being horrible and foolish. That doesn’t lend itself on honorable compromise either, but as the power swings and you get more of this this battle that goes on which I don’t think helps anybody so no I don’t at all agree that compromise capitulation compromise is necessary if you just pray it’s honorable.

C&B: But then turn there’s the aspect of when you take a position in opposition outside of a fiscal matter the idea of capitulation is that you know there’s a question about what do you stand for? What are your identities? What’s your identity politics and and so I guess, how do you define your moral compass?

Abeler: Well, I can tell there’s nothing worse than identity politics frankly. Why, you know why does the person who’s African-American have to be the one to stand up African-American issues I care about that as well. I worked with BobbyJoe Champion on the African-American family restoration act. I’ll just try to find a way to have less people of color in this case, African-Americans being placed the children placed out of their homes and child protection because it was it was like a huge ratio just proportion and the same thing for the tribes and we worked with with the MIFPA on the ICRA programming in Minnesota with Mary Kunesh who happens to be a tribal member who championed this. So, has to do with caucasian matter whatever that might be or you have to be from Mars to take care of issues that only Martians care about you know.

C&B: Are you saying there’s Martians on Earth? Now Jim are you making news?

Abeler: Yeah, this is this is my breaking announcement but it’s amazing that you have to be in the categories of individual of that particular subset of humanity to have any voice or credibility on it and that’s what you’re going to work on you know so then only I still work on chiropractic issues and teachers should only work on education then and as a, but where is the statesmanship. Where the people to look at the big picture and like what’s good for Minnesota? What’s good for our country? I might not even wanna do the thing that’s good for the country but if I know it’s good for the country then I better do it. We have lost that in the favor of what it’s gonna hurt the category of my subset of my community and then no matter what about the rest I’m sorry it doesn’t help you in fact that I’m taking your money to help my group, and that’s not governing that’s just simply being you know caring a lot your own backyard and I care about the North Metro but I also as I ran for the US Senate and I’d realize that the whole state of Minnesota out there and I went to 650 places in 14 months and I went to places I didn’t even know we had I saw every topography every demographic and it broaden my thinking and so I think it’s time for some broader thinking with these folks to think that they’re there just to help the Hispanics or the African-Americans or the chiropractors or whatever and to care about what happens to people who don’t happen to be in those categories of individuals we’ve lost that and these sort of things that go on now where people react like oh look at who this person was, but did the shooting therefore, we have to hunker down and you know, fight the fight harder and when in reality, the rhetoric that goes on gins up these kind of folks who might’ve otherwise sat quietly and both on the left down the right and that’s not good for Minnesota or for America.

C&B: Well, I asked you about your moral compass. Can you tell me your faith?

Abeler: Yeah, I’m a,  the Lord is my rock and I lean on him. I’m not sure what category. On the evangelical side, choking, on the evangelical side for me and I believe the Bible what it says and I read it every day and I just come from there and understanding that everybody doesn’t agree with with that and this is a country of religious freedom as well so you get to disagree with anything I think you get to have you know you get to choose your faith there may be consequences to that in the long run, but that’s between you and your creator so that’s my moral compass.

C&B: Always good to be in disagreement, but not be disagreeable.

Abeler: Right, right?

C&B: There’s another element rising though, and I’m concerned about this and at least it sounds like there’s some ties to heinous actor again alledged in Lance Boelter, he was a member of the Christian Nationalist movement which, as I understand, it is former religious nationalism that focuses on Christian views, and it’s followers in order to teach prominence or dominance in political, cultural and social life. Is that concerning?

Abeler: I really have no time for any extremist on any part of the spectrum. They don’t represent. They represent their own little nitch. That’s another example of people that are doing this identity thing so if it’s bad for him to do that and it is. It’s just as misguided to think that because I’m a certain demographic that that’s all I’m gonna care about. So, they’re dangerous at worst and at best, they’re just myopic and they’re gonna work on things that don’t help the whole of us. Government exist to serve the whole it has. It should have a limited range of duties and responsibilities in Minnesota that the constitutional duties are education, transportation, and public safety, we’ve added in as a cultural social contract concern for the elderly and the people with disabilities and people economic distress, and that’s pretty much a cultural Minnesota value that we hold. But how far we go that is often a debate, but so, but it exists for the good of the whole and that’s why we tax ourselves to things we agree on that makes sense and the more we get into things run by more people who were of a narrow or a category when we wind up paying for things that are not probably supported and that makes people frustrated and it creates a whole discussion about tax and spend and I actually you’ve given this little budget probably had the people that took the brunt of the cuts, the brunt, were the people that had the lease means in less capacity, the elderly seniors people are disabilities the greatest like 80% of cuts were in that niche. I’m not sure anybody meant that but that’s the way it wound up and so you gotta really remember, what’s the goal and to help those who are certainly with the least options.

C&B: Well, actually, I did have a proposal that would’ve solved all of those problems which is a state run casino in Saint Paul, which is devoid of many things and even riverboat gambling in Saint Paul. I think those things would’ve given a revenue stream and I think we could address the moral compass question about you know, gambling, and vices, and things like that which is most of what the things we tax are here in the state I mean, would you agree?

Abeler: I think we should tax more of the people that do podcast reporting. I think there’s a market there and if you like it then you can get a rebate if it’s like you know. I don’t I’m not a big fan of expanding gambling but I know having some friends who lost their homes due to foolishness and their addictive behavior of the machines. It concerns me and so it’s even though I think the majority of my district would like me to support some of that. I have a hard time getting there, and you asked about my moral compass. I try to be true to the things that I believe. And people that seem to respect that OK and I guess if they really want somebody who’s gonna be pro gambling if they really want that then they’ll replace me with somebody who it is but anyway, so that’s the thing of it. It’s not a golden parachute and I think you have to look at Frank at all the society on the cultural cost and how many now families who are. They’re now divorced because of it now have kids that are in the system somehow And you know all the emotional and mental health challenges of those families in the aftermath and so that’s what my argument is count all the cost and then tell me it’s worthwhile and then we can see what the real math is. That’s all.

C&B: Well, then, what about this from a leadership perspective is Donald Trump’s rhetoric causing these extreme actions that were with witnessing or is he just a symptom of a larger problem and if so, what is that problem?

Abeler: I think all the rhetoric is causing this. Certainly, Donald Trump has rhetoric Governor Walz went to South Carolina 10-days ago and said Democrats need to be meaner, like really, what kind of rhetoric is that the first thing out of his mouth after the shooter was that was discovered that Melissa was killed was that we’ve gotta stop this political stuff like that and he politicized it already you listen to the national Democratic leaders in the Senate and in the House. They spent all their time with rhetoric. Oh, this is terrible. You know if the Democrats cured cancer the Republicans wouldn’t give them credit for it, and if the Republicans thought of to find a way to get world peace that would actually work and be free, the Democrats would say it falls short. At some point we’ve got to get away from everybody saying, I’m right you’re wrong and instead of saying, can you let me listen to your idea? Let’s incorporate part of your idea into my plan into our plan and I think whoever did that first would be in power forever and yet they think that it’s great to say how bad somebody is. The reason that they send all those negative as they apparently work and it drives down the support for somebody they see maybe people don’t vote anymore and they think it wins an election, but they lose the war. They lose the long range view of the long range welfare of our country by doing that and so the question that you really have to ask the question that then the Representative Pawlenty asked as we were working our way to redistricting in 2002 to keep the majority to do what and I think that’s the real question of people need to ask what is that we’re trying even to do? Lower taxes that more access to various things that people on access to have more money for families you know help business. What is that that we really need to do the people I run into my little berg here in North Metro I just wanna have a chance to live their life and be left alone. They don’t mind helping their neighbors. They help them on their own. They don’t mind helping their neighbors, they don’t mind chipping in with their taxes to help people who have problems and challenges. But they just want to keep it off their back and you know that that’s not very sexy to put an ad. We’re gonna keep it off your back and I run on improving education you know safe streets to talk abut improving some of the roads up our way we finally got Highway 10 is paid for done and on the way to being done, after 20-years, I think of a new campaign ad I guess like work on some other highway. So that’s where what are the people really want and most people vote with their feet and they don’t go do anything they finally show up to vote for one of two choices like that’s the choices we got you know the choices we had was Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, I mean, do you think those are the two best people in the country did Joe Biden and Donald Trump were the two best choices I mean seriously of all the people that you could’ve found that you know, and then they all yeah we want our guy like our woman and then like and like my goodness and frankly, you haven’t asked, but I’m telling you my concern going forward with all this concern about shooting public officials, which is now on the list of choices for people who are mentally unstable. Good people are not gonna go near this place to get more people on the edges. We’re gonna be passionate and jealous and willing to put their lives to accomplish their particular identity politic and I’ll be at left or right and I’m really worried about that and sad as this thing goes forward.

C&B: All right, would you agree that this was not just a political assassination but a political tactical assassination specifically hitting Senate district 34 with John as the senator and Melissa one of the house members you have a house in the advantage for Republicans until a special election’s called you have a Senate that will be without John until John has the capacity to vote and I’d have to look back. I don’t I don’t think they change the rules but based on the rules that they had before COVID and things like that Kari Dziedzic you can actually vote remotely, can John can use a phone, I don’t know.

Abeler: Actually, John can vote remotely. He could vote remote today. I think you gotta be careful about tactical suggestions about anything. I have no idea why people would do this. As I said, I am not willing to ascribe a motive to somebody. I remember talking to a lawyer friend of mine, talking about intent. You can look at an action. The judge, in this case, is all kind of should we look inside of his head to see what’s in there. A little graphic, but you can’t look, you can’t see anything by looking at a person’s eyes. You can see what they did and you can hate it, and I hate it, what this fellow did. But I have no idea of that. There will be plenty of discussions about that to come, which, frankly, is going to further divide us and push us more down the road. The very things we want less of. And so, I’m interested in trying to build a positive construct going forward here and to make sure that people get away from the divisive rhetoric, which only gins up people like this guy, who is whatever he is, but other people who might be equally vulnerable, but their perspective can be way different than this guy’s. That’s the best I got.

C&B: All right. In closing, how, after this horrific act, can Minnesota and America heal again?

Abeler: About the very thing I said, you know, we’re going to pass some law maybe about something, but already murder is illegal, so I can make it more illegal. People, but so, we need to get to the point where somebody says, you know, hey, that was a good idea. And you’re not in our party, but I like your idea. Let’s put that into our political, into our one-party bill that you have. Let’s find a way to build, to complement each other, instead of every turn in front of the microphone in Washington or St. Paul and going, look at how horrible these people are. Let’s get away from saying our party should be meaner and instead our party should be kinder. Some people talk about a kinder, gentler thing. I need to go back to that. You live a marriage the way that works, where you criticize your spouse all the time. And as a longtime spouse, I’m highly criticizable and I’ve earned it. But at some point you want them to say, thank you. Let’s go enjoy each other. And that’s my advice. And let’s create a world where people who have divergent points of view and some people who are extreme, let’s talk about this. Let’s help you through. Let’s engage people in a positive, humanely, thoughtful dialogue. Let’s rebuild our bill. There’s a lot of things that are good to rebuild, but let’s keep building our country. And the, you know, we’re so fortunate here with all the freedoms. And let’s make Minnesota the state everybody wants to come to. So, that’s what I got.

C&B: Do you have anything that you’d like to say in a close?

Abeler: I appreciate the chat. And I appreciate that you and I can disagree in a thoughtful way. And that’s the political dialogue. I think that you and I, even with our disagreements on some of these items, can find common ground here and move the ball forward. And, you know, improving the rhetoric, improving our budget, improving Minnesota. And that’s the hope I have. That’s why I stay. That’s why, you know, I’m going to run again. Hopefully the people want to give me a chance to go back and continue to work. And that’s my commitment to everybody.

C&B: Well, thank you for your time and thank you for your service.